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Post by revmichael on May 13, 2007 16:13:45 GMT
It has occurred to me that in reading the comments of fellow togs everyone, who has so far contributed, has either been a non-believer in the Christian faith, unsure of religious faith or a born-again Christian.
Do we have any Muslims, Hindus etc. who would like to share their faith, and their views with us?
It would be nice to learn about other togs and their faith and values.
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Post by Beau Leggs on May 14, 2007 13:05:56 GMT
I am a non-believer in all religions, and not just Christianity (in all it's forms).
The morality part in all religions, I have no exception to. Except when someone takes part of it out of context to get their ideas across.
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Post by Fi on May 15, 2007 0:27:02 GMT
It has occurred to me that in reading the comments of fellow togs everyone, who has so far contributed, has either been a non-believer in the Christian faith, unsure of religious faith or a born-again Christian. Do we have any Muslims, Hindus etc. who would like to share their faith, and their views with us? It would be nice to learn about other togs and their faith and values. I know of no Muslims or Hindus, but there is a smattering of Jews as well as a couple of Wiccan, plus a while back, one Buddhist. I did, however, share an office with a Muslim for five years, we talked about religion a lot, and I have read much of the Koran - it was all part of a personal journey into comparative religion. The similarities between Christianity and Islam are greater than their differences and a similar situation is true of Jewry. None of which is any great surprise, since all are 'people of the book', the book being what Christians call the Old Testament and Jews, the Torah. So, in one sense the differences between all of the major religions which were derived in the Middle East are much the same as the sectarian differences between Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists etc in the Christian church or Shia and Sunni in Islam. The unfortunate common denominator is that they all think that their visions of God are right and everyone who disagrees with them are wrong and over the centuries thousands have died because of those beliefs.
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Post by revmichael on May 15, 2007 6:45:44 GMT
It has occurred to me that in reading the comments of fellow togs everyone, who has so far contributed, has either been a non-believer in the Christian faith, unsure of religious faith or a born-again Christian. Do we have any Muslims, Hindus etc. who would like to share their faith, and their views with us? It would be nice to learn about other togs and their faith and values. I know of no Muslims or Hindus, but there is a smattering of Jews as well as a couple of Wiccan, plus a while back, one Buddhist. I did, however, share an office with a Muslim for five years, we talked about religion a lot, and I have read much of the Koran - it was all part of a personal journey into comparative religion. The similarities between Christianity and Islam are greater than their differences and a similar situation is true of Jewry. None of which is any great surprise, since all are 'people of the book', the book being what Christians call the Old Testament and Jews, the Torah. So, in one sense the differences between all of the major religions which were derived in the Middle East are much the same as the sectarian differences between Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists etc in the Christian church or Shia and Sunni in Islam. The unfortunate common denominator is that they all think that their visions of God are right and everyone who disagrees with them are wrong and over the centuries thousands have died because of those beliefs. Thanks Fi except I don't think you will find the majority of members of Christian denomination thinking that everyone else is wrong. It is merely that, for example, some people find it more to their temperament to worship in a simple service, while others find formal liturgy to their liking. I'm sure that we Baptists get a lot of things wrong - in fact PMR and I now worship, very happily, in an Anglican church. When I taught Religious Education in a comprehensive school I used to say the difference between a religion and a sect is that Sects teach that everyone else has got it wrong. In my last pastorate I had regularly members from fourteen different Christian denominations plus a man who is a Jain (he is married to a Christian girl). He used to sit with tears streaming down his face when I preached - not because it was that bad, but because I was describing the love that God has for us in sending the Lord Jesus Christ to die on the cross to pay the price of our sins.
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Post by revmichael on May 15, 2007 6:49:25 GMT
Fi, what is a Wiccan please?
I don't think I've come across that title, but it seems a little familiar.
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Post by Sir Blimely Windy on May 15, 2007 8:14:56 GMT
Michael, I hope Fi does not mind if I explain.
Wiccans are followers of neo-pagan beliefs. They believe that life is a constant flow of positive and negative energies. The old beliefs of Wiccans practising witchcraft and practising satanic rituals is, by its very definition, incorrect, as they would need to subscribe to subscribe to christian values.
I am not a wiccan, but I have read up a little bit on it, ever since I found out that one of my great-grandfathers was a druid, in fact.
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Post by revmichael on May 15, 2007 8:39:43 GMT
Michael, I hope Fi does not mind if I explain. Wiccans are followers of neo-pagan beliefs. They believe that life is a constant flow of positive and negative energies. The old beliefs of Wiccans practising witchcraft and practising satanic rituals is, by its very definition, incorrect, as they would need to subscribe to subscribe to christian values. I am not a wiccan, but I have read up a little bit on it, ever since I found out that one of my great-grandfathers was a druid, in fact. Thanks my friend. That's helpful. The word was vaguely up there in my befuddled brain; but it's good to have a precise definition.
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Post by Beau Leggs on May 15, 2007 11:30:57 GMT
... When I taught Religious Education in a comprehensive school I used to say the difference between a religion and a sect is that Sects teach that everyone else has got it wrong. .... So when did the Jewish sect, called Christians, change from a sect in to a religion? Doesn't Jesus say that he is the only way to God, thus saying that Jews and other non-Christians cannot enter Heaven?
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Post by Fi on May 15, 2007 12:36:44 GMT
I know of no Muslims or Hindus, but there is a smattering of Jews as well as a couple of Wiccan, plus a while back, one Buddhist. I did, however, share an office with a Muslim for five years, we talked about religion a lot, and I have read much of the Koran - it was all part of a personal journey into comparative religion. The similarities between Christianity and Islam are greater than their differences and a similar situation is true of Jewry. None of which is any great surprise, since all are 'people of the book', the book being what Christians call the Old Testament and Jews, the Torah. So, in one sense the differences between all of the major religions which were derived in the Middle East are much the same as the sectarian differences between Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists etc in the Christian church or Shia and Sunni in Islam. The unfortunate common denominator is that they all think that their visions of God are right and everyone who disagrees with them are wrong and over the centuries thousands have died because of those beliefs. Thanks Fi except I don't think you will find the majority of members of Christian denomination thinking that everyone else is wrong. It is merely that, for example, some people find it more to their temperament to worship in a simple service, while others find formal liturgy to their liking. I'm sure that we Baptists get a lot of things wrong - in fact PMR and I now worship, very happily, in an Anglican church. When I taught Religious Education in a comprehensive school I used to say the difference between a religion and a sect is that Sects teach that everyone else has got it wrong. In my last pastorate I had regularly members from fourteen different Christian denominations plus a man who is a Jain (he is married to a Christian girl). He used to sit with tears streaming down his face when I preached - not because it was that bad, but because I was describing the love that God has for us in sending the Lord Jesus Christ to die on the cross to pay the price of our sins. That's a very interesting answer Michael - I was thinking of things like the feuds between Roman Catholics and Protestants that have gone on for hundreds of years and are still expressed in such things as the law that says that kings and queens of this country may not marry Catholics, and the persecution of the Huguenots in France, the split between the Orthodox church and Rome etc. I don't think that any of these things derived from 'temperament' nor their followers making a choice on such a basis. They were far more accidents of geography and politics. However, a lot of churches, such as your own, are far more inclusive these days, which is no bad thing. It certainly is better than the times where people were persecuted as heretics for having different beliefs on things like transubstantiation, rather than focussing on the central belief that you wrote above.
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Post by revmichael on May 15, 2007 12:59:18 GMT
Thanks Fi except I don't think you will find the majority of members of Christian denomination thinking that everyone else is wrong. It is merely that, for example, some people find it more to their temperament to worship in a simple service, while others find formal liturgy to their liking. I'm sure that we Baptists get a lot of things wrong - in fact PMR and I now worship, very happily, in an Anglican church. When I taught Religious Education in a comprehensive school I used to say the difference between a religion and a sect is that Sects teach that everyone else has got it wrong. In my last pastorate I had regularly members from fourteen different Christian denominations plus a man who is a Jain (he is married to a Christian girl). He used to sit with tears streaming down his face when I preached - not because it was that bad, but because I was describing the love that God has for us in sending the Lord Jesus Christ to die on the cross to pay the price of our sins. That's a very interesting answer Michael - I was thinking of things like the feuds between Roman Catholics and Protestants that have gone on for hundreds of years and are still expressed in such things as the law that says that kings and queens of this country may not marry Catholics, and the persecution of the Huguenots in France, the split between the Orthodox church and Rome etc. I don't think that any of these things derived from 'temperament' nor their followers making a choice on such a basis. They were far more accidents of geography and politics. However, a lot of churches, such as your own, are far more inclusive these days, which is no bad thing. It certainly is better than the times where people were persecuted as heretics for having different beliefs on things like transubstantiation, rather than focussing on the central belief that you wrote above.Yes, of course Fi. Perhaps it is the followers of certain religious leaders who take things to much greater extremes than their leaders intended. E.g. perhaps the 'troubles' in Northern Ireland sprang from those who used the Protestant and the Roman Catholic version of Christianity to cause trouble. Probably many of the humble believers in those groups did not bear any grudge against those of the other side but sadly some will 'jump on a bandwagon' and make accusations, without thinking. Certainly in the past many iniquities were carried out in the name of religion - and, sadly, that hasn't altogether gone away. Perhaps all we can do, as individuals, is to make sure that we do not blame people because they are Muslims e.g., and before we start to 'point the finger' we ought to find out what the truth is.
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Lucy Lastic
Young Limb
Another cynical ex hippy now working for the establishment
Posts: 33
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Post by Lucy Lastic on May 15, 2007 20:03:45 GMT
Rev Michael, you said ‘I don't think you will find the majority of members of Christian denomination thinking that everyone else is wrong.’
I have to disagree as this is not what I have found– I follow the faith of my ancestors, a faith that is far older than Christianity, a faith that has been subject to persecution down through the ages because it was NOT Christian. I have found that the people least tolerant of my faith are Christian. Now, whilst I would not say this is the case with ALL Christians, of all the people of various beliefs I have conversed with through the years many Christians are very unwilling to understand the differences and far less accepting that I follow a different path. In general, the members of the Christian faith who are least understanding are those who are so convinced they are ‘right’ that they close their minds to all discussions and accuse us of ‘devil worship’ amongst other things. An interesting point since the devil is a Christian concept and yet they are criticising us for not believing in their bible!
This is not a tirade against Christians, all I ask is that they afford my beliefs the same respect as I give theirs, unfortunately this doesn’t usually happen. I have, throughout my life, met people of most religions and learned a bit about various beliefs. Religion will always be something where no-one is right and no-one is wrong, unfortunately too many religious wars prove not everyone thinks that way and religion is often used as an excuse for violence.
And as a by the way, I am not Wiccan – Wicca as path is very recent thing, mainly stemming from the teachings of Gerald Gardner in the 1950s – just after the Repeal of the Witchcraft act in 1951.
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Post by revmichael on May 15, 2007 21:17:26 GMT
Rev Michael, you said ‘I don't think you will find the majority of members of Christian denomination thinking that everyone else is wrong.’ I have to disagree as this is not what I have found– I follow the faith of my ancestors, a faith that is far older than Christianity, a faith that has been subject to persecution down through the ages because it was NOT Christian. I have found that the people least tolerant of my faith are Christian. Now, whilst I would not say this is the case with ALL Christians, of all the people of various beliefs I have conversed with through the years many Christians are very unwilling to understand the differences and far less accepting that I follow a different path. In general, the members of the Christian faith who are least understanding are those who are so convinced they are ‘right’ that they close their minds to all discussions and accuse us of ‘devil worship’ amongst other things. An interesting point since the devil is a Christian concept and yet they are criticising us for not believing in their bible! This is not a tirade against Christians, all I ask is that they afford my beliefs the same respect as I give theirs, unfortunately this doesn’t usually happen. I have, throughout my life, met people of most religions and learned a bit about various beliefs. Religion will always be something where no-one is right and no-one is wrong, unfortunately too many religious wars prove not everyone thinks that way and religion is often used as an excuse for violence. And as a by the way, I am not Wiccan – Wicca as path is very recent thing, mainly stemming from the teachings of Gerald Gardner in the 1950s – just after the Repeal of the Witchcraft act in 1951. Thanks Lucy for that. What I was trying to say was that many ordinary Christians do not argue with each other - like they did in former generations. But sadly, where people are involved there will always be bigots and those who want to critcise. I too, have faced that kind of thing only this year - and have suffered for it, but I don't think that is the norm by thinking, kindly people. I can disagree with people's beliefs without being nasty or falling out with them Exactly so Michael - that is the Christian way of doing things. Unfortunately Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and all of the sects within those religions have had their religion 'stolen' from them at some time or another by influential leaders who pervert religion for political ends. I have no doubt that the majority of most religion's followers want a peaceful, secure life in which to raise a family free of hunger or disease and to look towards their inevitable deaths as something that need not be feared. I should aplogise to Lucy, I have very little knowledge of Pagan belief's and that ignorance was responsible for my using the term Wiccan wrongly. However, it did remind me of the advice that Pope Gregory gave to Augustine when the latter was trying to convert the British and bemoaning the fact that a lot of them were not willing to give up their religious feasts. Pope Gregory's answer was simple - incorporate the old religion's feasts into the Christian calendar. A fine piece of pragmatism - I raise an invisible glass to Pope Gregory when I sit down to Christmas dinner each year!
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Post by Fi on May 15, 2007 22:33:07 GMT
Rev Michael, you said ‘I don't think you will find the majority of members of Christian denomination thinking that everyone else is wrong.’ I have to disagree as this is not what I have found– I follow the faith of my ancestors, a faith that is far older than Christianity, a faith that has been subject to persecution down through the ages because it was NOT Christian. I have found that the people least tolerant of my faith are Christian. Now, whilst I would not say this is the case with ALL Christians, of all the people of various beliefs I have conversed with through the years many Christians are very unwilling to understand the differences and far less accepting that I follow a different path. In general, the members of the Christian faith who are least understanding are those who are so convinced they are ‘right’ that they close their minds to all discussions and accuse us of ‘devil worship’ amongst other things. An interesting point since the devil is a Christian concept and yet they are criticising us for not believing in their bible! This is not a tirade against Christians, all I ask is that they afford my beliefs the same respect as I give theirs, unfortunately this doesn’t usually happen. I have, throughout my life, met people of most religions and learned a bit about various beliefs. Religion will always be something where no-one is right and no-one is wrong, unfortunately too many religious wars prove not everyone thinks that way and religion is often used as an excuse for violence. And as a by the way, I am not Wiccan – Wicca as path is very recent thing, mainly stemming from the teachings of Gerald Gardner in the 1950s – just after the Repeal of the Witchcraft act in 1951. I suggest Lucy, that if any other Christian argues in this way with you, suggest they visit the Newgrange Neolithic burial mound in the Boyne Valley in Ireland. It absolutely reeks of spirituality which came as a serious shock. I had wanted to see it for years because of its archaeological significance. I'd seen loads of photos as well, but nothing prepared me for the power of the place, which gave my agnosticism a fair jolt.
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Post by revmichael on May 16, 2007 7:29:23 GMT
Rev Michael, you said ‘I don't think you will find the majority of members of Christian denomination thinking that everyone else is wrong.’ I have to disagree as this is not what I have found– I follow the faith of my ancestors, a faith that is far older than Christianity, a faith that has been subject to persecution down through the ages because it was NOT Christian. I have found that the people least tolerant of my faith are Christian. Now, whilst I would not say this is the case with ALL Christians, of all the people of various beliefs I have conversed with through the years many Christians are very unwilling to understand the differences and far less accepting that I follow a different path. In general, the members of the Christian faith who are least understanding are those who are so convinced they are ‘right’ that they close their minds to all discussions and accuse us of ‘devil worship’ amongst other things. An interesting point since the devil is a Christian concept and yet they are criticising us for not believing in their bible! This is not a tirade against Christians, all I ask is that they afford my beliefs the same respect as I give theirs, unfortunately this doesn’t usually happen. I have, throughout my life, met people of most religions and learned a bit about various beliefs. Religion will always be something where no-one is right and no-one is wrong, unfortunately too many religious wars prove not everyone thinks that way and religion is often used as an excuse for violence. And as a by the way, I am not Wiccan – Wicca as path is very recent thing, mainly stemming from the teachings of Gerald Gardner in the 1950s – just after the Repeal of the Witchcraft act in 1951. I suggest Lucy, that if any other Christian argues in this way with you, suggest they visit the Newgrange Neolithic burial mound in the Boyne Valley in Ireland. It absolutely reeks of spirituality which came as a serious shock. I had wanted to see it for years because of its archaeological significance. I'd seen loads of photos as well, but nothing prepared me for the power of the place, which gave my agnosticism a fair jolt. Thanks Fi. That is helpful to many, I'm sure. Your final words remind me that Frank Muir said that he had become a lapse agnostic!
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Lucy Lastic
Young Limb
Another cynical ex hippy now working for the establishment
Posts: 33
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Post by Lucy Lastic on May 16, 2007 18:57:26 GMT
I suggest Lucy, that if any other Christian argues in this way with you, suggest they visit the Newgrange Neolithic burial mound in the Boyne Valley in Ireland. It absolutely reeks of spirituality which came as a serious shock. I had wanted to see it for years because of its archaeological significance. I'd seen loads of photos as well, but nothing prepared me for the power of the place, which gave my agnosticism a fair jolt. Thanks for that Fi. The most profound spiritual experience I ever had was two years ago at the Ring of Brogar, Orkney at the Summer Solstice. I had wanted to be there at that time as my first visit, during the day, made a lasting impression even though it was busy with tourists but absolutely nothing prepared me for the sheer spiritual power of those stones during the 'simmer dim' in the short time between sunset and sunrise. I have heard 'magical' used to describe theings but until then I didn't know what 'Magical' really was.
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Lucy Lastic
Young Limb
Another cynical ex hippy now working for the establishment
Posts: 33
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Post by Lucy Lastic on May 16, 2007 19:12:28 GMT
I think this may have been added by Fi Exactly so Michael - that is the Christian way of doing things. Unfortunately Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and all of the sects within those religions have had their religion 'stolen' from them at some time or another by influential leaders who pervert religion for political ends. I have no doubt that the majority of most religion's followers want a peaceful, secure life in which to raise a family free of hunger or disease and to look towards their inevitable deaths as something that need not be feared. I should aplogise to Lucy, I have very little knowledge of Pagan belief's and that ignorance was responsible for my using the term Wiccan wrongly. However, it did remind me of the advice that Pope Gregory gave to Augustine when the latter was trying to convert the British and bemoaning the fact that a lot of them were not willing to give up their religious feasts. Pope Gregory's answer was simple - incorporate the old religion's feasts into the Christian calendar. A fine piece of pragmatism - I raise an invisible glass to Pope Gregory when I sit down to Christmas dinner each year!
No apology required - it's a fairly commonly held belief (even by some Wiccans) that Wicca is a very old faith. Wicca is only one path of Paganism - just as in the Christian faith there are Catholics, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists etc so with Paganism there are Heathens, Wiccans, Druids, Asatru, Shamans amongst others.
I never argue about religion and I would certain never try to 'convert' anyone which I find some people trying to do to me. My mother in law introduced me o her minister as her 'Heathen daughter in law', she intended to try to embarrass me in front of him but when I said she was absolutely correct the minister and I had a very interesting conversation about our respective beliefs. He had an open mind which she doesn't. I have had it suggested to me that if I 'repent' the error of my ways, the suggestor would ask his God to forgive me.
I don't like to hear people described as heathens as a form of insult - no-one would says ' you're a muslim' for the same reason.
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Post by Sir Blimely Windy on May 16, 2007 19:16:04 GMT
Thank you, Lucy, for enlightening us.
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Post by BjornTobyStomped on May 16, 2007 19:23:27 GMT
Michael, I hope Fi does not mind if I explain. Wiccans are followers of neo-pagan beliefs. They believe that life is a constant flow of positive and negative energies. The old beliefs of Wiccans practising witchcraft and practising satanic rituals is, by its very definition, incorrect, as they would need to subscribe to subscribe to christian values. I am not a wiccan, but I have read up a little bit on it, ever since I found out that one of my great-grandfathers was a druid, in fact. Why do witches have to subscribe to Christianity SBW? Sorry I don't follow that. Satanists I see where you're coming from but not the witches. Can you elaborate mate? Also the word 'pagan' is roman in origin and didn't describe a religion per se it was used to describe someone who lived in the countryside. Sorry, pedant attack over.
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Post by Sir Blimely Windy on May 16, 2007 19:33:52 GMT
Toby, it is what I was saying.
The 'bad press' that witches got was that they were involved in satanic business. The concept of Satan is based in christianity. Therefore as they did not follow christianity, they could not.
That is what I was saying. Sorry if you were confused.
As for paganism, al I was saying is that it has interested me to find out about various branches of paganism, due to my family link.
Once, again, sorry.
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Post by BjornTobyStomped on May 16, 2007 19:43:39 GMT
Toby, it is what I was saying. The 'bad press' that witches got was that they were involved in satanic business. The concept of Satan is based in christianity. Therefore as they did not follow christianity, they could not. That is what I was saying. Sorry if you were confused. As for paganism, al I was saying is that it has interested me to find out about various branches of paganism, due to my family link. Once, again, sorry. Thanks for that SBW. No need to apologise though ol' chap
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