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Post by natty on Nov 30, 2007 20:11:02 GMT
Hello everyone! I know it's been a while - I've missed you all while I've been away! I just thought I'd ask everyone what they're views are on celebrating Christmas. I know for many (including myself) it is one of the most important times of year - but what makes it so special to you? What do/don't you like about Christmas? Do you think Christmas has become too commercial or do you enjoy this aspect of the festivities? Maybe you'd just like to share your favourite Christmas memory? Whatever your view, if you have a few minutes and would like to share your thoughs about Christmas then this is the place to do it. Thanks Nat
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Post by crystal on Nov 30, 2007 21:24:12 GMT
Hello everyone! I know it's been a while - I've missed you all while I've been away! I just thought I'd ask everyone what they're views are on celebrating Christmas. I know for many (including myself) it is one of the most important times of year - but what makes it so special to you? What do/don't you like about Christmas? Do you think Christmas has become too commercial or do you enjoy this aspect of the festivities? Maybe you'd just like to share your favourite Christmas memory? Whatever your view, if you have a few minutes and would like to share your thoughs about Christmas then this is the place to do it. Thanks Nat Well Young Nat What a thoughtful posting! What Christmas means to me is exactly what it means to you! Carry on in the rest of your life what you are doing now!! Love everone!!
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Post by shemlock on Dec 1, 2007 7:45:23 GMT
I love Christmas, but do feel it has become too commercialised. I would like to know why people who declare that they are atheists or whatever and do not believe in God, still celebrate Christmas? If they don't believe in God and the birth of Jesus, why do they celebrate Jesus's birthday? (just having a grump) When my children were small, I felt Christmas began when they took part in the school Nativity play. These plays were the best entertainment, with little faces peering out from under teatowels and other costumes, to say their well rehearsed lines, in breathless voices and then, ad libbing, when in the excitement they were forgotten. Small children prompting each other in earnest. Little faces lighting up when they saw their parents and grandparents in the audience, and then giving a little wave. Parents bursting with pride and giggling at the ad libs and mistakes, which always added to the fun. Priceless. PS. Hi Nat.
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Post by crystal on Dec 1, 2007 9:04:49 GMT
No indeed you are not having a grump.I always find it difficult at Christmas because I can't get into my own church for people who come out once a year for the carols! Last year they had reserved seats-when I went I was told I would have to stand(I can't!) so went home
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Post by revmichael on Dec 1, 2007 9:25:15 GMT
For me Christmas is also (as well as all the religious connotations) a time for family - and children. We will be having it with some of my children and two of our little grandchildren. that will be lovely.
Of course, no one knows on what date Jesus was born but 25th December is as good as any other. It's always helpful to have a point of reference to remember any event.
Yes - Hi Nat. Nice to see you.
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Post by meltemi on Dec 1, 2007 11:17:18 GMT
As the non-conformist, non-practicing atheist Dec 25th is simply another Statutory Holiday. The family will have received their cards, the grandchildren their gifts etc. Our received cards will be in a neat pile ready for recycling. Thememsahib & I will exchange our traditional gifts, one something serious from the ever decreasing 'wish-list' and something totally ridiculous & totally frivolous (cost £2.50 max).
The highlight of the day? A picnic on the beach somewhere on the North Norfolk coast. A bit of bird watching. home to a fine wine, a fine Armagnac better still industrial strength coffee & several ouzo's on a rock or two..In a very contented happy state off to bed tomorrow is another day to be attacked if available...
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Post by Fi on Dec 3, 2007 13:59:10 GMT
I love Christmas, but do feel it has become too commercialised. I would like to know why people who declare that they are atheists or whatever and do not believe in God, still celebrate Christmas? If they don't believe in God and the birth of Jesus, why do they celebrate Jesus's birthday? (just having a grump) When my children were small, I felt Christmas began when they took part in the school Nativity play. These plays were the best entertainment, with little faces peering out from under teatowels and other costumes, to say their well rehearsed lines, in breathless voices and then, ad libbing, when in the excitement they were forgotten. Small children prompting each other in earnest. Little faces lighting up when they saw their parents and grandparents in the audience, and then giving a little wave. Parents bursting with pride and giggling at the ad libs and mistakes, which always added to the fun. Priceless. PS. Hi Nat. I read a very sad newspaper artcle yesterday that said the 4 out of 5 schools no longer held nativity plays for fear of distressing children brought up in other religions. Apparently there are some politically correct plays that do not mention the nativity, and they get used in some of these schools. Other schools simply do nothing - I think the latter is depriving both children and parents of some wonderful childhood moments.
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Post by revmichael on Dec 3, 2007 14:05:43 GMT
I love Christmas, but do feel it has become too commercialised. I would like to know why people who declare that they are atheists or whatever and do not believe in God, still celebrate Christmas? If they don't believe in God and the birth of Jesus, why do they celebrate Jesus's birthday? (just having a grump) When my children were small, I felt Christmas began when they took part in the school Nativity play. These plays were the best entertainment, with little faces peering out from under teatowels and other costumes, to say their well rehearsed lines, in breathless voices and then, ad libbing, when in the excitement they were forgotten. Small children prompting each other in earnest. Little faces lighting up when they saw their parents and grandparents in the audience, and then giving a little wave. Parents bursting with pride and giggling at the ad libs and mistakes, which always added to the fun. Priceless. PS. Hi Nat. I read a very sad newspaper artcle yesterday that said the 4 out of 5 schools no longer held nativity plays for fear of distressing children brought up in other religions. Apparently there are some politically correct plays that do not mention the nativity, and they get used in some of these schools. Other schools simply do nothing - I think the latter is depriving both children and parents of some wonderful childhood moments. Yes. This kind of thing seems to be happening more each Christmas - all done supposingly in the name of not upsetting those of non-Christian faiths. But when Sikhs, Muslims etc are interviewed they all seem to say, 'But we don't object to the story of Christmas being told - we send Christmas cards as well as those of our own religion. It seems that the kind of alterative plays that Fi talks about are usually inspired by the secularist lobby. After all there are huge number of Christmas Cards available that don't have a Bible message about them - in fact it is sometimes quite difficult to find cards that do have nativity scenes on them.
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Post by tigerlily on Dec 3, 2007 14:20:52 GMT
I worked in Bradford for a firm where the senior partner was a Sikh, several other staff members were Muslim, and the rest were a broad mix of Anglicans, Catholics, Methodists and not-really-botheredists.
We were all off between Christmas Day and January 2nd, mainly because the courts were shut (for the most part). Those who had hearings scheduled for the days between Boxing Day and January 31 either did them or got agents to cover them.
We observed all the statutory Bank Holidays en masse, as again the courts close for the most part over Easter. The non-Christian staff covered religious bank holidays. In return, Muslim staff had time off for Eid and other religious festivals.
Everyone sent Christmas cards, regardless of their religion.
Where I work now we had until recently a secretary who is a Jehovah's Witness. She asked specifically never to receive a Christmas card, didn't send any and refused to accept a bun whenever another member of staff had a birthday. She even refused to attend my secretary's 50th birthday dinner and stayed away when we had a lunchtime party for another secretary's 40th. That caused a fair amount of comment, but on the whole we respected her right to exercise her religious freedom. Apart from one of the partners at another office, who sent Christmas cards to every member of staff!
In most multi-faith schools, I see no harm in holding Nativity plays. It's part of British culture, this being a Christian country institutionally. By the same token, I would expect there to be observance of Eid-ul-Fitr and Eid-ul-Adha, to Chanukah, Passover and basically the major holidays of other religions - regardless of whether there are children of those faiths in the school or not.
People fear that of which they are ignorant. Therefore if we grow up knowing about other faiths, we may be less likely to fear them.
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Post by meltemi on Dec 3, 2007 14:22:46 GMT
well as your resident atheist... I respect all those who have a faith & frequently enjoy their various festivals when invited. The festival days Easter & Christmas are also Statutory holidays for all regardless of whether they are needed for a festival purpose or not. There is the freedom to use or not use aspects of those festival days or not.
So thememsahib & I lead a fairly plain life every day of the year in total bliss. Exchanging cards at Christmas as an extension of contact. exchanging relatively simple gifts as it is something we have done for many years and it is too difficult to stop others from this exchange. Our wish-list gifts that we exchange are merely tokens of our love for each other.
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Post by tigerlily on Dec 3, 2007 14:29:07 GMT
As to what Christmas means to me (returning to the theme of this thread), although I'm a terrible sort of Christian and lately find myself questioning faith a lot, I used to love the Watchnight service and used to attend even when I did not go to church services regularly (sorry Mal)!
It's part of the whole magic of Christmas for me.
When my parents were alive, I looked forward to Christmas all year because it meant forgetting all our troubles through the rest of the year and enjoying family time together. Too much food, dad sitting in his armchair with his nose in whatever books we'd bought him that year, granny asleep on the sofa with the tv blaring away, my brother inevitably throwing a strop and retreating to his bedroom while mum and I sat there giggling at them all and sorting through presents and discarded wrapping paper.
Now, it means the chance to spend a good chunk of time with Aging Hippy. We do a mixture of things like going to the Weinachtsmarkt in Mannheim, choosing a tree, buying each other a special decoration for it and picking out other things to dress the tree and decorate the house. We have a mixture of traditional American Christmas food and English things (although I choose not to cook sprouts for either of us and he generally won't have any gravy and picks at the stuffing and bread sauce and smothers everything in cranberry jelly).
Then there are phone calls to family (his) and calls from and to mine. It makes me a little sad for him that he has to try and track down his children to speak to them and may or may not manage to speak to his dad, depending on which of his sisters is hosting him for Christmas.
We both spend a little time remembering those who are no longer with us and talking about Christmases past and the things we used to enjoy.
We're building our own Christmas traditions. Whether there will be anyone to pass them onto I don't at this point in time know.
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Post by crystal on Dec 3, 2007 15:24:11 GMT
Tiger
I don't object to them attending Church once a year as it is better than nothing-however I am not convinced that they are going for the right reason ie to celibrate the Birth of Christ.I think they actually go because they like singing along to Christmas Carols (at least that's what I understand) and as soon as the euphoria of singing in a packed Church at this time of year that is the last time religion enters their mind!!
I know I'm an old fashioned type of Christian but it always seems slightly hypocritical for The Church (and facilities) to be utilised for 1 day as a place to have a Family Sing-Along once a year! So to all those who do so please try Church at other times.You may feel a lot better for it!
And remember if you are euphoric after going to the Carol Service in a packed Church imagine how the Minister would love to preach to a full house each week.It makes his work and life so much easier and more enjoyable.After all his job is to spread the word og God not to preach to diminishing numbers!
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Post by revmichael on Dec 3, 2007 15:28:59 GMT
I worked in Bradford for a firm where the senior partner was a Sikh, several other staff members were Muslim, and the rest were a broad mix of Anglicans, Catholics, Methodists and not-really-botheredists. We were all off between Christmas Day and January 2nd, mainly because the courts were shut (for the most part). Those who had hearings scheduled for the days between Boxing Day and January 31 either did them or got agents to cover them. We observed all the statutory Bank Holidays en masse, as again the courts close for the most part over Easter. The non-Christian staff covered religious bank holidays. In return, Muslim staff had time off for Eid and other religious festivals. Everyone sent Christmas cards, regardless of their religion. Where I work now we had until recently a secretary who is a Jehovah's Witness. She asked specifically never to receive a Christmas card, didn't send any and refused to accept a bun whenever another member of staff had a birthday. She even refused to attend my secretary's 50th birthday dinner and stayed away when we had a lunchtime party for another secretary's 40th. That caused a fair amount of comment, but on the whole we respected her right to exercise her religious freedom. Apart from one of the partners at another office, who sent Christmas cards to every member of staff! In most multi-faith schools, I see no harm in holding Nativity plays. It's part of British culture, this being a Christian country institutionally. By the same token, I would expect there to be observance of Eid-ul-Fitr and Eid-ul-Adha, to Chanukah, Passover and basically the major holidays of other religions - regardless of whether there are children of those faiths in the school or not. People fear that of which they are ignorant. Therefore if we grow up knowing about other faiths, we may be less likely to fear them. I serve on our local authority Standing Advisory Council for Religious Education. It is a requirement of the 'Agree Sylllabus' that Christianity plus other religions be taught - the number of others depends, e.g. on the age of the children (i.e. Key Stage One require Christianity plus one other; the school chooses it from four main ones - plus there is always flexibility to spend more time on a particular one if there is a special reason to do so (e.g. children from that faith in the school). However, none of these religions must be taught in the sense of indoctrination. A teacher who is e.g. a keen Christian, Muslim etc. is forbidden to try to persuade the children that their own faith is the correct one. The two main things that are taught about any religion is - learning ABOUT the religion; and - learning FROM the religion.
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Post by tigerlily on Dec 3, 2007 15:35:18 GMT
I did go every Sunday when I was at uni, sometimes twice a day. And it was something I generally enjoyed. I'm happy to go to any church that will have me, so I don't really mind which denomination I go to.
My problem these days is in finding a church that I enjoy attending, should I have the urge to go. The village church (CofE) opens on two Sundays a month, with the church in the next village (about three miles away) holding services on the in-between Sundays. In a five-Sunday month, I guess the vicar has a weekend off!
I'm kind of loath to attend a church with such a small congregation. I'm not much of a joiner-in, and so I would feel out of place there, too exposed in a way.
I am feeling drawn more to Quakerism than anything else at the moment. Again, though, the local Quaker meeting is very small.
I do agree though that it is a bit much to expect to be able to front up to a church when it suits you and to effectively prevent the regular worshippers from gaining access.
I last went to the Episcopalian church's Midnight Mass when I was at home for Christmas. That is again a small congregation, but as I know most of them anyway it doesn't bother me so much. I wouldn't give the local Church of Scotland minister the time of day for some very personal reasons. I was delighted to discover when my father's funeral service was held that it was possible to use the church but have an alternate Minister. A friend of my father's who was a retired vicar who'd spent many years in Zimbabwe was kind enough to conduct the service, and he did a fantastic job as he'd actually known my father very well and was able to really personalise the service.
I do sort of wish I'd felt strong enough to give a reading or some kind of eulogy, but I didn't trust myself not to cry, and I won't do that in front of hundreds of people - which there were, the church was jam-packed.
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Post by crystal on Dec 3, 2007 15:48:11 GMT
Tiger
From whatyou say you are a reasonably regular churchgoer and have genuine reason for non-attendance.I too have changed Churches recently because Lady Vicar is too lightwieght to me !!Lovely person but always writing and performing silly little plays-just not my style.(I hasten to add I did not tell her!)
I performed the eulogy at my mate's funeral last year.Nerve racking of course but it seemed to go down well!
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Post by xraysteve on Dec 3, 2007 19:04:43 GMT
I like the anticipation of christmas much more than I like it when it happens, I may or may not get to a service, I am at work 9-5 on the 25th and PMX is on 4-8 in the evening so we might see each other for an hour or so. Because of that a midnight service is a little out of the question too.
I used to like christmas but now it just means grief and aggravation. I have not been able to see my family on Christmas day since before we got married (as far as PMX knows they could be like Princess Fiona in Shrek and turn into ogres on Christmas day) as the M-I-L expects to be the centre of our things and the harrassment can start as early as the previous Christmas afternoon if she suspects thta we may have other plans for Christmas next year. The fact that we are both in jobs where we have to work is irrelevant and we cannot see my family because that is not fair as my M-I-L is on her own and my parents are not.
If this sounds harsh then I am sorry but it is just an extension of what we have to cope with all year round jealousy from PMX's Mother towards any time she might spend with my family,anyway it seems to be distilled to an even stronger solution for this time of the year. Despite the fact that PMX is working she will have to drive over, pick up her mother and Grandfather, bring them back to ours, cook them dinner and then take them back again. Her mother will not have her father at her house and it is PMX's duty but she MUST enjoy doing it as well. Last year she had to go over to her mothers to transport her Grandfather and then had to pay for her christmas dinner.
I do not mind working and I do not mind a certain amount of time with family but because we have to do both perhaps (though I am well aware many people are in the same or at least similar boat), we do not seem to get any time to ourselves. we did try one year and it was horrible. Before anybody accuses me of being heartless it was only the one day, as a newly wed couple that we wanted to spend a Christmas day in our own home on our own. We had my M-I-L over for Christmas eve, cooked for her and had a christmas day for her which was fine while it was happeneing but once "her" time was over (her expression and one that i hate) she was absolutley foul to PMX. Christmas day was made up of nothing but phone calls from her, most of them to some degree unpleasant if not downright abusive.
So for this reason, Christmas is cerebral religious celebration in my life and something to be endured.
Nice to see you back Nat and sorry to be such a miserable little photon!!!
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Post by Glen B Ogle on Dec 3, 2007 21:03:44 GMT
I'm still pondering on the original question here! But just a few (fairly random) thoughts from reading the other postings...
I think we all need a chance to "celebrate" something in the middle of winter - after all it's likely the early Christians simply took over a pagan festival! It doesn't really matter in that respect whether we're Christian, atheist, agnostic or any other religion.
Too much family pressure and commercialism though will endanger this celebration. Seems obvious, but I feel really sorry for all the people for whom it's a time of trial because of family problems.
I can well understand Mal's point, our church building seats about 65 comfortably, although we can just about manage 80 with some standing (we have had 100+ in, although many of these were children, but in hindsight we shouldn't have allowed it for safety reasons). The trouble is that for us it's not just a case of standing room only as last year 170 people turned up! We now plan this as an indoor-outdoor service and with the coming of electricity this year will at least be able to pipe the music and prayers to outside - we're also having dual reading to keep the contact with both groups.
I'm afraid I only managed to persuade my brother to assist with the PA on the grounds that we were having some decent carols - the clincher was ending with "O Come all ye Faithful" (omitting the last verse). He is a part time folk singer, but "doesn't do organised religion" which isn't a problem as this will be nothing like organised!
Midnight will be a much quieter service though., and the good thing is that we have gained regular attenders from these services. We do look at the afternoon carols as part of our mission and outreach work, but we hope at least some people come for the "right" reasons.
Presents certainly don't figure as a large part of our family Christmas. I usually exchange with my close friends - either something useful or appropriate - often an "I saw this and thought of you" present. I can't reveal what these presents are this year in case they read this! It's fun to do the pressies and we can show out appreciation of each other in a way we often forget during the rest of the year.
Christmas day itself is always a family dinner. These days we cheat on the potatoes and veg largely, but I do make some of the stuffings from scratch - this year two different sausage meat (a fruity aromatic on for mum and a stronger one for me) plus sage-and-onion. We also have cockerel not turkey (brother doesn't have gravy and reckons it's moister).
Glen
With apologies for rambling
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Post by sarah on Dec 3, 2007 23:33:50 GMT
No need to apologise Glen, this is the place for you, Steve and anyone else who might need to let of steam, after all, for myself anyway, this time of year is stressfull for all sorts of reasons. Be it work/money/family/lonliness/berievment/illness or whatever. I'm finding it very hard to gather up some enthusiasm, and would love to get that light up sign that says *bah humbug*, but of course I won't, and will try my hardest for the tygs. (as for presents lol - whatever I get for the MOG it will be wrong, always has been etc) Sorry now I'm waffling. Anyway Happy Christmas/Holiday everybody. xx
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Post by revmichael on Dec 4, 2007 8:06:10 GMT
This thread is throwing up all kinds of thoughts - and it's good that people feel able to 'let off steam too.'
The Christmas of 1975 looked as though it would be bleak for me. I was a single parent, working long hours in a factory and the children had gone to their mother's for the Christmas holidays. For a long time I had been buying small things for each of the four children (13 years down to 5 years) and when I wrapped them up I was near to tears because they seemed to make such a very small pile (and I knew their mother would lavish loads of money on them). I thought I would be spending Christmas day on my own, then I got home one evening and found a small parcel on my step. It was a food parcel from one of the local charities. The food items were very welcome but it was the thought that someone had remembered me that brought tears to my eyes. At the last minute a local family invited me to spend Christmas Day with them - and they even had a present on the Christmas Tree for me!
Even at dismal times a light can show through the gloom.
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Post by shemlock on Dec 4, 2007 8:22:01 GMT
This thread is throwing up all kinds of thoughts - and it's good that people feel able to 'let off steam too.' The Christmas of 1975 looked as though it would be bleak for me. I was a single parent, working long hours in a factory and the children had gone to their mother's for the Christmas holidays. For a long time I had been buying small things for each of the four children (13 years down to 5 years) and when I wrapped them up I was near to tears because they seemed to make such a very small pile (and I knew their mother would lavish loads of money on them). I thought I would be spending Christmas day on my own, then I got home one evening and found a small parcel on my step. It was a food parcel from one of the local charities. The food items were very welcome but it was the thought that someone had remembered me that brought tears to my eyes. At the last minute a local family invited me to spend Christmas Day with them - and they even had a present on the Christmas Tree for me! Even at dismal times a light can show through the gloom. I was pleased that you had a happy ending to what was a very sad time for you. Christmas is a sad time as well as a happy time. Remembering the ones that cannot be with us and those that are no longer with us.
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