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Post by troykerr on Jun 8, 2009 7:15:34 GMT
On Friday we attended the funeral of the husband of a cousin's husband. As this took place in deepest Cornwall we made a stopover in Devon on the way back.
On Sunday Morning we were sat down at breakfast with a group of 4 people we had not previously met and a couple that we had met the the previous day.
After saying our hellos we sat and awaited our breakfast; whereupon without preamble the elderly gent opposite proceeded to say Grace.
I felt this was presumptuous as he had no idea what the religious views [if any] the none members of his party held. Linda told me I was being over sensitive. Note: I kept silent until we were back in our room.
I just wondered what others might feel about his behaviour and my feelings about his actions?
Incidentally; I was brought up in a mixed faith household and whilst I attended church each Sunday we did not observe the ritual/practice of 'saying Grace' before meals.
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Post by tigerlily on Jun 8, 2009 10:47:18 GMT
It doesn't really bother me, to be honest. We were not at all a religious household when I was a child. My dad described himself as an agnostic, my mum was High Anglican but had pretty much given up on organised religion, and I went to church till I was 12 then decided that if there was a God, he wasn't much interested in me or my life so I stopped going.
I have friends who are Christian, and when I stay with them I have no problem with either of them saying Grace before we eat, and will happily go to church with them. It could be a Catholic Mass, it could be an Anglican service as she is a Catholic and he an Anglican. I don't object either way. While I don't attend church regularly, I am open to the idea of there being a higher power of some kind and am comforted at times by the presence - or the feeling of a presence - 'out there'.
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Post by idiotmittens on Jun 8, 2009 12:10:08 GMT
Did he just say it for himself, or were you all 'invited' to join in? Can't say it would have bothered me at all, and my hardline atheist views are well known on here. I have a similar situation when the male voice choir I sing with performs in a church. If there is a blessing or some sort of prayer, I sit there looking straight ahead. I will not bow my head, close my eyes, or join in with any Amen. Strangely, I might have just sung half a dozen hymns with God, Jesus and a shed-load of Amen's in them, but to me they are just fantastic sounding songs and do not reflect my own beliefs. My own dilemma would be how to respond if, as a guest in someone's house, I was asked to say grace. It would take some tact not come to come over as rude or provocative
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Post by troykerr on Jun 8, 2009 13:59:56 GMT
IM - He took it upon himself to say it on our behalf and we were expected to join in though this was implied not stated. Had I have had food in front of me I may well have beaten him to the draw.
I should have stated we were in a B&B and he like us was just a paying guest. Were I a guest in someone else's house I hope I would respect their views but would not attend any service other than a wedding, funeral etc.
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Post by leadwellie on Jun 8, 2009 23:02:58 GMT
out of politeness he could of asked if anyone minded him saying grace, when I was in hospital 2 friends of ours came to see me they are penticost, they asked if they could prayer over me before my opp, I said no and the respected that.
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Post by Glen B Ogle on Jun 9, 2009 5:24:56 GMT
I think he should have asked before including everyone in his prayer. It wouldn't have bothered me personally, but would be, at the least, embarassing for many people.
Glen
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Post by revmichael on Jun 9, 2009 6:58:10 GMT
When we are out at a meal like that my wife often whispers to me, 'Say your own.' We do not believe it is right to cause any embarrassment to anyone over our religious beliefs. If the whole table are fellow Christians then someone usually asks, 'Who's going to say grace?' and one of us does (it is not assumed that it would be me - if I was the only minister present). Whoever says grace does so in a quiet voice so as not to cause embarrassment to anyone else, nor to draw attention to ourselves as though we were something special.
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Post by troykerr on Jun 9, 2009 7:19:26 GMT
Thank you Michael that is how I feel it should have been done. Mind you Linda did tell me that I was being over prickly about it.
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Post by Beau Leggs on Jun 9, 2009 9:22:55 GMT
I may be an atheist, but I am not a fundamentalist atheist - I don't mind folk believing in their god of choice as long as it doesn't affect me or my family.
It wouldn't have bothered me if I was in Carl's situation, as long as he didn't mind that I scoffed into my food as soon as it arrived.
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Post by Tina Biscuit on Jun 9, 2009 20:44:27 GMT
There was a debate on Jeremy Vine about this a few weeks ago, and I have to admit that I didn't realise there was such strength of feeling about the subject.
I fall firmly in the corner of 'each to their own'. I choose not to follow a religion, but I would not object if I was at a meal in a friend's house and they said Grace. Equally though, I would not expect them to insist on saying Grace if they were in my house.
In the guest house I would have expected the gentleman in question to say Grace if that's what he does before a meal, but not to assume that the rest of the table wished to join him
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Post by Fi on Jun 10, 2009 0:51:39 GMT
IM - He took it upon himself to say it on our behalf and we were expected to join in though this was implied not stated. Had I have had food in front of me I may well have beaten him to the draw. I should have stated we were in a B&B and he like us was just a paying guest. Were I a guest in someone else's house I hope I would respect their views but would not attend any service other than a wedding, funeral etc. Carl, I'm curious. Would you have have minded as much if the elderly gent had been sitting at a different table?
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Post by troykerr on Jun 10, 2009 7:00:52 GMT
Fi - My view is based purely upon the way he - without first asking - included all at the table. Note: he had not met half those seated until moments before.
As to whether my view would have been different had his party been seated at their own table - yes of course as he would not then have included folk who may have totally differing views.
Though it me be irrational I feel it arrogance to assume that others automatically share my views on things.
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Post by Fi on Jun 10, 2009 13:19:50 GMT
I understand the reasons why you were cheesed off - my mind had gone on to musing about the unifying effect, even between complete strangers, of sitting and eating at the same table. I presume the elderly gent used words like 'us' and 'we', but the only reason for you think that included you was that you were sat at the same table. Since you mention it, I don't see how it can be arrogant to object to presumptuous behaviour of any sort, be it dressed up as religious observance, good manners, even offering aid to the elderly in some circumstances, or any other sort of seemingly innocuous behaviour. However well meaning, the onus is the person who wants to, as in this instance, to ask permission before proceeding.
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Post by revmichael on Jun 11, 2009 6:31:30 GMT
If I'm visiting someone - particularly if they are ill - I always ask, 'Do you mind if I now pray for you?' Of course, if they say 'No' - and I always try to respect their wishes - then I can pray for them when I get home. I always try to make it clear that just because I'm a minister (even a retired one - and now a layperson in the church of England) that my prayers are no more valid than anyone else's.
And Beau, you remind me of a Christian Guest House we went to many years ago. Naturally the owner said Grace before meals - but as he started to serve the food he reminded his guests of 2 Peter 3:3, 'Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers.'
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Post by Beau Leggs on Jun 11, 2009 8:19:30 GMT
If I'm visiting someone - particularly if they are ill - I always ask, 'Do you mind if I now pray for you?' Of course, if they say 'No' - and I always try to respect their wishes - then I can pray for them when I get home. I always try to make it clear that just because I'm a minister (even a retired one - and now a layperson in the church of England) that my prayers are no more valid than anyone else's. And Beau, you remind me of a Christian Guest House we went to many years ago. Naturally the owner said Grace before meals - but as he started to serve the food he reminded his guests of 2 Peter 3:3, 'Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers.' But I sit down when I lust after food.
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Post by lily on Jun 25, 2009 22:56:25 GMT
Carl I agree with you on this one - I would expect the man to at least ask if you minded.
I would be most uncomfortable if that happened to me - only because if nothing else - the lack of respect for those 'strangers' around the table.
That said, if he'd had the courtesy to ask if I minded then I would prob have said 'go ahead' and just let him. It's the lack of respect for others that would have got up my nose.
xxx
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Post by revmichael on Jun 29, 2009 6:58:56 GMT
Carl I agree with you on this one - I would expect the man to at least ask if you minded.
I would be most uncomfortable if that happened to me - only because if nothing else - the lack of respect for those 'strangers' around the table.
That said, if he'd had the courtesy to ask if I minded then I would prob have said 'go ahead' and just let him. It's the lack of respect for others that would have got up my nose.
xxx I agree with you about lack of respect. The same thing could apply to those who 'light up' in a public place or make a long, loud phone call in a railway carriage without asking if other minded. These are not only disrespectful of the feelings of others but annoying. Some while ago I had to endure a commuter journey to London (where all the office workers are generally quiet) and an American with a very loud voice gave his instructions to his colleagues and periodically shouted, 'Go kiss ass.' He sounded very, very important (no doubt in his own mind) but that isn't how we thought of him.
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Post by paul Zernikazof on Jun 30, 2009 20:37:51 GMT
Carl I agree with you on this one - I would expect the man to at least ask if you minded.
I would be most uncomfortable if that happened to me - only because if nothing else - the lack of respect for those 'strangers' around the table.
That said, if he'd had the courtesy to ask if I minded then I would prob have said 'go ahead' and just let him. It's the lack of respect for others that would have got up my nose.
xxx I agree with you about lack of respect. The same thing could apply to those who 'light up' in a public place or make a long, loud phone call in a railway carriage without asking if other minded. These are not only disrespectful of the feelings of others but annoying. Some while ago I had to endure a commuter journey to London (where all the office workers are generally quiet) and an American with a very loud voice gave his instructions to his colleagues and periodically shouted, 'Go kiss ass.' He sounded very, very important (no doubt in his own mind) but that isn't how we thought of him. This may amuse you Michael. Many years ago I was on a training course in Norwich and, along with a dozen or so other colleagues was staying in a hotel. As we had nothing to do in the evenings the ale flowed freely and breakfast the following morning tended to be a sombre affair with whispered comments of 'Pass the butter' and such like. One morning to our horror we found that we had been joined by a coach load of American tourists doing the Cathedrals of England. They spoke at a volume normally only required by teachers at a comprehensive school or a regimental drill sergeant After some time one of my colleagues suddenly clutched his throat, yelled Arrrggghhhh and fell to the floor, the whole room went silent. At that point he got up said 'Thats better' and sat down again. Breakfast once again became a hushed affair with whispered conversations and glances toward our end of the room. The coach party departed fairly soon afterward.
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Post by revmichael on Jul 1, 2009 6:57:22 GMT
I agree with you about lack of respect. The same thing could apply to those who 'light up' in a public place or make a long, loud phone call in a railway carriage without asking if other minded. These are not only disrespectful of the feelings of others but annoying. Some while ago I had to endure a commuter journey to London (where all the office workers are generally quiet) and an American with a very loud voice gave his instructions to his colleagues and periodically shouted, 'Go kiss ass.' He sounded very, very important (no doubt in his own mind) but that isn't how we thought of him. This may amuse you Michael. Many years ago I was on a training course in Norwich and, along with a dozen or so other colleagues was staying in a hotel. As we had nothing to do in the evenings the ale flowed freely and breakfast the following morning tended to be a sombre affair with whispered comments of 'Pass the butter' and such like. One morning to our horror we found that we had been joined by a coach load of American tourists doing the Cathedrals of England. They spoke at a volume normally only required by teachers at a comprehensive school or a regimental drill sergeant After some time one of my colleagues suddenly clutched his throat, yelled Arrrggghhhh and fell to the floor, the whole room went silent. At that point he got up said 'Thats better' and sat down again. Breakfast once again became a hushed affair with whispered conversations and glances toward our end of the room. The coach party departed fairly soon afterward. Thanks Paul. The daughter of a friend of mine has married an American and they live in LA. Last time she was here I asked her what it is like living in LA and she said the thing that she notices most is that everyone is so very, very LOUD. But the same think can happen here between someone from e.g. Surrey and a Yorkshire man. People say that we southerners are snooty; but we're not, we are just reserved. But I will try falling on the floor in agony the next time an American speaks very loudly. On the other hand a quiet voice does not mean that a person is miserable. When we were on a fishing boat in the Maldives in February one of the other eight passengers was a Swedish man who said very little and seldom smiled. He just said, 'We say little; we just carry on with our task of raping and pillaging!' He had a very, very keen sense of humour.
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Post by stanislav on Jul 2, 2009 18:53:34 GMT
I've just spent some valuable time reading the thoughts regarding the mutterings of an old man before the starting of a much needed feed. I'm now late for my dinner and my stomach is once again feeling like my throat has been cut. I have to say that faced with the chap waffling on when the rashers are getting cold would have been met with my plate being far emptier at the end of his little speech than at the start. Rations being rations, the very notion that one can wait around indefinitely in the hopes that the old chap either ends his ramblings or shuffles off his mortal coil (not wishing to be unkind to the chap but food is food and the breaking of one's fast comes close to the glass of water being offered to the desert traveller in need of a slaking), one doesn't know when the next meal might loom up on the horizon so time has to be of the essence. By all means, the chap is most welcome to utter his thanks for that which is getting cold before him (here I might go as far as to be most grateful to the staff who are undoubtedly sweating it out below stairs for the benefit of those with more disposable income than they who prepare the fodder), but with a gimlet eye on the sands of time than never cease to flow, one would polish off as much of the brekkie as one possibly could in the hopes that the chap opposite was not too partial to his bacon and could therefore be convinced to slide the aforementioned onto my waiting plate in a waste not, want not method of remembering that there are many people in this world who are going hungry while some old chap witters on whilst letting good food go cold!
Do you mean, Stan, that if anyone must 'give thanks' for their meal then please make it a short one?
(On the rare occasions that my children are at home they say, 'Don't give us a long grace, Dad).
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