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Post by Beau Leggs on Jul 27, 2009 14:34:50 GMT
Should all religious schools have the religion removed or be closed down - a bit like the French system, and you can't say that the French are not irreligious.
I believe a big chunk of the problems we have in Scotland is that the two biggest groups are segregated into non-denominational (Protestant) and Roman Catholic Schools. To keep the religions happy, they could have upto an extra hour before or after school for religious teaching.
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Post by xraysteve on Jul 27, 2009 16:40:38 GMT
People seperate themselves into groups. It is what they do. In the west it is in the form of religions and denominatoions within the religion, football teams, tec ad infinitum
France may be a more secular society but still has similar problems, perhaps not with religion but with similar things.
You can close the schools if you like but I have little faith that it will make any difference at all in the long run.
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Post by Beau Leggs on Jul 27, 2009 22:20:46 GMT
People seperate themselves into groups. It is what they do. In the west it is in the form of religions and denominatoions within the religion, football teams, tec ad infinitum France may be a more secular society but still has similar problems, perhaps not with religion but with similar things. You can close the schools if you like but I have little faith that it will make any difference at all in the long run. As you say, folks may and do separate into groups - race, religion, class, etc. My school, along with other working class schools in Glasgow, was 99% white, scottish and protestant or Roman Catholic. It was drummed into us in the play ground the hatred and derogatory comments about Roman Catholics, and similar thing was happening at the nearest Roman Catholic school. The only time pupils of both schools met was to fight. All each other new about the other group was the stereotype. When we had big industries in Glasgow, the divide continued. I must admit that I was fortunate that Most of my cousins are RC, so I knew that there was no difference. I know that this was an extreme example, but the more we segregate the less we understand and thus the more we distrust, which leads to more segregate. Thus the vicious circle continues.
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Post by shemmy on Jul 28, 2009 5:14:45 GMT
I know that this was an extreme example, but the more we segregate the less we understand and thus the more we distrust, which leads to more segregate. Thus the vicious circle continues. You have hit the nail on the head, as usual, Beau. If integration is not encouraged, the divide becomes wider. Where better to start, than in schools. Children will happily play with each other, until they are taught that there is a difference between them. Peace between religious sections can only be achieved, if there is more understanding of each other and less intolerance. I think that it will be a long time before this happens, as long as there is segregation.
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Post by Olivia Newton Mearns on Jul 29, 2009 6:31:02 GMT
People seperate themselves into groups. It is what they do. In the west it is in the form of religions and denominatoions within the religion, football teams, tec ad infinitum France may be a more secular society but still has similar problems, perhaps not with religion but with similar things. You can close the schools if you like but I have little faith that it will make any difference at all in the long run. As you say, folks may and do separate into groups - race, religion, class, etc. My school, along with other working class schools in Glasgow, was 99% white, scottish and protestant or Roman Catholic. It was drummed into us in the play ground the hatred and derogatory comments about Roman Catholics, and similar thing was happening at the nearest Roman Catholic school. The only time pupils of both schools met was to fight. All each other new about the other group was the stereotype. When we had big industries in Glasgow, the divide continued. I must admit that I was fortunate that Most of my cousins are RC, so I knew that there was no difference. I know that this was an extreme example, but the more we segregate the less we understand and thus the more we distrust, which leads to more segregate. Thus the vicious circle continues. Beau, My experience of school in the west of Scotland was similar to yours but I honestly think things have changed for the better now. My niece and nephew attend an RC school but play football / netball for teams with children from all the local schools, attend dancing and other activities with other children their age not through the school and as a result the friends they play with locally are children who live near them irrespective of what school they go to. My husband teaches in an RC primary school and there are a number of initiatives in the local community to integrate the schools and the children. Re the idea of an hour of religious education, I think the answer you would receive to that is that denominational schools (not just RC but also Jewish, C of E) have an ethos where the religious beliefs permeate through every lesson of every day and are not there simply to instruct in the religious theory etc. As a matter of interest I also know that the RE curriculum in my husband's school does now include education about many different religions and not just the RC one. Evidence shows that a substantial number of parents choose to send their children to denominational schools, even if they do not practice the religion of the school, and rather than arguing to abolish the choice to do so I would prefer to see resources being concentrated on encouraging the integration of children irrespective of what school their parents have chosen for them and the education of those children, which I think should lead to increased tolerance and an end to segregation.
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Post by revmichael on Jul 29, 2009 6:37:25 GMT
I am a member of the Bracknell Forest Standing Advisory Council of Religious Education. The task of RE teachers (at least in England) is to deal with learning about and learning from religion. There is to be NO indoctrination or preaching. I believe the same attitudes apply to C of E and RC aided or controlled schools. While Christianity is supposed to have more time given to it than other religions Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism etc. should all be taught. Again, by teaching is meant 'learning about' and 'learning from' each of those religions. Personally I cannot understand why there should be separate Protestant and RC schools in Northern Ireland. Does Scotland have a similar kind of divide?
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Post by Beau Leggs on Jul 29, 2009 8:49:26 GMT
I am a member of the Bracknell Forest Standing Advisory Council of Religious Education. The task of RE teachers (at least in England) is to deal with learning about and learning from religion. There is to be NO indoctrination or preaching. I believe the same attitudes apply to C of E and RC aided or controlled schools. While Christianity is supposed to have more time given to it than other religions Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism etc. should all be taught. Again, by teaching is meant 'learning about' and 'learning from' each of those religions. Personally I cannot understand why there should be separate Protestant and RC schools in Northern Ireland. Does Scotland have a similar kind of divide? Scotland and Northern Ireland are very similar. The Protestantism in both countries is Presbyterian. Unlike the CofE where the structure is similar to the RC - but with a different boss. Some versions of the Presbyterian churches believe that the Pope is a false prophet. The point is not about religious lessons, it is about religious segregation. The Northern Ireland way is a prime example, with Scotland being the same but without the guns and bombs. Now just wait for those to go through Islam only schools, Fundamentalist Christian only schools, Sikh only schools, etc. then you will have groups that have little or nothing to do with other groups, then there will ignorance of others. This will be the breading grounds for extremists like the BNP and other vermin.
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Post by Beau Leggs on Jul 29, 2009 9:35:35 GMT
Beau, My experience of school in the west of Scotland was similar to yours but I honestly think things have changed for the better now. My niece and nephew attend an RC school but play football / netball for teams with children from all the local schools, attend dancing and other activities with other children their age not through the school and as a result the friends they play with locally are children who live near them irrespective of what school they go to. My husband teaches in an RC primary school and there are a number of initiatives in the local community to integrate the schools and the children. Re the idea of an hour of religious education, I think the answer you would receive to that is that denominational schools (not just RC but also Jewish, C of E) have an ethos where the religious beliefs permeate through every lesson of every day and are not there simply to instruct in the religious theory etc. As a matter of interest I also know that the RE curriculum in my husband's school does now include education about many different religions and not just the RC one. Evidence shows that a substantial number of parents choose to send their children to denominational schools, even if they do not practice the religion of the school, and rather than arguing to abolish the choice to do so I would prefer to see resources being concentrated on encouraging the integration of children irrespective of what school their parents have chosen for them and the education of those children, which I think should lead to increased tolerance and an end to segregation. There is a new school, I think in South Lanarkshire, that is a shared campus. It is basically a common playground and canteen, but other than that the RC part and NonDen parts are kept separate. When it was first forced by the council that these two separate schools be joined in a new campus, the RC school wanted a separate playground and entrance. There are two local primary schools in my area - one RC and one NonDen. The council decided that the NonDen school was to be knocked down and a new school be built on the common. The RC isn't in that great a condition. Any reasonable person would have thought to propose a new joint school, as it would save the council - running one building would be cheaper than two separate one. How come a teacher, who is RC, can teach at a NonDen school, but to teach in a RC school you have to be RC? If religious teaching has to be incorporated into every subject, then I put it that is more akin to brain washing. I can see their point of view in history and religious studies, but not in maths, physics, chemistry, phys ed, geography or even english. Evidence shows that parents who want the best for their children will send them to the best school they can. If that school just so happens to be a religious one, then so be it. As with any school that has a reputation of being a good school, then the number of applicants quickly exceeds places. They can then be selective in who they take. Obviously they will syphon off the cleverest ones. This will only enhance their reputation and thus more applications per place. There is this myth that religious schools are more moral and disciplined than the local comprehensive. Again it is down to good schools being selective and the parents who want the best for their children. These families tend to be more disciplined, thus an easier job for the teachers. If you want I'll take you a tour of schools around Glasgow and will show religious ones full of knuckle-draggers and well as ones of high achievers as well as NonDen ones full of knuckle-draggers and ones with high achievers.
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Post by Fi on Jul 29, 2009 13:14:49 GMT
I agree that, while faith based schools, or football teams for that matter, may have some advantages, those advantages are far outweighed by the potential for divisiveness. The French, as in many other things, have, I think, the right approach, that is a secular society where people are free to make up their own minds about religion. The only reason for the difference in the UK is the connection between the state and the crown - the monarch is also the Supreme governor of the C of E - and at one time all of the schools were expected to observe the C of E's idea of ideal christian practise. That had little to do with religion, but everything to do with maintaining the monarch's power. In more enlightened times, other Christian sects and faiths were allowed to set up their own schools - by the way, including the Baptists. I can't see anything wrong with teaching about religion in schools, but it should be a warts and all education about not just the beliefs enshrined in individual faiths, but also the dreadful consequences of any group of people being taught from childhood that they were more righteous than everyone else. Considering that followers of Judaism, Christianity and Islam all consider the writings in the Old Testament to be inspired by their version of God, the terrible pitfalls of disagreeing about the details are all too clear. Stressing the common ground, something that is unlikely to happen in a faith school, could lead to an outbreak of social harmony.
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